#167 - From Wall Street to Infinite Banking with Chris Naugle

[00:00:00] You know, the one thing that pilots talk to us most about is paying too much in taxes. And as income's gone up, taxes have gone up. And so we talk about this on the show all the time. But we're actually going to dive deep into how pilots can execute tax mitigation strategies and investment tactics alike at our Passive Income Pilots Conference. Tait, when are we going to have it this year?

[00:00:24] It's in Las Vegas, Nevada on October 8th and 9th. Everybody's going to fly in on the 7th. It's going to be a jam packed two days of sessions with expert panels and over 250 of your colleagues who are like minded professionals who are looking for those exact same tax mitigation strategies. Join us in Las Vegas. It's going to be an absolute blast. So if you want tickets, go to PassiveIncomePilots.com or you can go to the link in the show notes. But with that, let's get to the show.

[00:00:53] Tait, what are you working on? I know that you're doing some stuff. I know you're doing like a lot of tax planning prep. I am. I was going to share a story about a cost segregation study that I'm having done right now on a rental property that we did last year. Not as fun as tailwheel flying, but maybe I could share some educational wisdom here.

[00:01:12] So we bought a triplex last year and this was going to be our tax write-off for 2025. And my wife has rep status because she's a realtor and she gets her 750 hours in real estate related activities. And then we also do 500 hours of material participation in the real estate space between the two of us throughout the calendar year. And again, you know, rep status is a difficult nut to crack, especially if you're trying to do it yourself as an airline pilot.

[00:01:39] But if you have a spouse who can get that rep status, it's just fantastic. And so I wanted to bring this up because we put the property in service about October last year. We bought it last summer. It's the front house is a 1929 build, older house, and there's a brand new duplex in the back. Came with tenants in the back. The front house was vacant when we took possession. We put about, I don't know, $20,000 into it and got it rented up.

[00:02:07] And the thing I want to point out here is for anybody that wants to utilize this strategy, and maybe it's an Airbnb or short-term rental, I should say, and you're thinking, hey, I want a cost, segregate, and bonus depreciate this. I always file late, or not late, but I extend, right? And so we're recording this on September 2nd and the partnership. So we use a partnership structure to hold our real estate.

[00:02:33] What that does is it gets your rental property off of your Schedule E, and it gets it into where you're just going to get a K-1. So it's a way to roll your investment properties up into a partnership, and then the partnership kicks out a single K-1 to yourself and your spouse and streamlines your taxes, makes your accountant very happy. It also dramatically reduces your audit risk.

[00:02:58] So the partnership and S-Corp filing deadline for the extension is September 15th, and we're currently doing a cost segregation study. And so I just want to point that out for people. If you're buying a short-term or some sort of rental property that you want to take advantage of, cost segregation, bonus depreciation on for 2025, maybe you bought it and you thought you missed your window. You have not. I mean, you can do a cost segregation study all the way up to the point that you file your taxes

[00:03:27] for the prior tax year. So in any case, we're getting that done. We got an inspector going out to the house that's going to take the measurements and take a look at the finishings and stuff like that. But that'll be a very healthy tax write-off for 2025. That's great. I love that. And I think the big takeaway there is it's not too late to do a cost seg study, right? You can always go back. It doesn't matter how many years have gone by. You can always go back and bonus depreciate, cost segregate, et cetera. So that's cool. Yeah, it's funny.

[00:03:55] I actually got a text yesterday from someone who has been listening to our podcast and said, personal thanks for your podcast. My friend just saved about a hundred grand in tax this year with about seven exclamation points. And she said, I owe you and your lovely lady a nice dinner. Cost seg in capital letters. Need I say more? Nice. So I'm happy that we're able to share this wisdom. We're really, we're saving people money on taxes.

[00:04:25] Yeah. And if you have no idea what we're talking about, uh, you can join us and over 250 other pilots. Yes. In October, October 8th and 9th, we're going to Las Vegas. We're all going to be there. Super fun. We have hundreds of people already signed up. We only have a few tickets left. So if you've been waiting to buy your ticket, you should buy your ticket because they are literally going to sell out pretty soon. Uh, you can go to passive income pilots.com, click on the conference.

[00:04:52] And we are going to be talking about cost seg strategies, tax, legal investments, short term rentals, syndications, everything. And asset protection, asset protection, trust and estate planning. Yes. And it's, it's not only for pilots, but it's tailored for pilots. Doctors are welcome to come and they're going to learn a lot from it, but it's going to be for a pilot. So they, everyone there is going to, in the room is going to know your situation, uh, get

[00:05:20] to know you more and really be able to tailor to your specific situation. And we're, I'm so excited about it. Tate and I, uh, we have been talking about doing a conference for years and we're finally, uh, excited to do it. So if you're like, what's this cost seg thing about? How can I save a hundred thousand dollars on my taxes? Uh, you can listen to the show, but you can also get more of a tailored approach to it. Learn what other people have done. Other pilots, uh, that are going to be there. Guests that have been on the show are going to be there. Yes. Uh, they're going to be speaking. They're going to be in the hallways, whatever it is.

[00:05:49] So, uh, look forward to seeing you guys. Absolutely. And I just have to say that, you know, my career in real estate didn't really take off until I started to go to in-person events. You know, I listened to hundreds, thousands of podcasts. I read books, but until you start getting around people that are doing this stuff, I mean, that's the catalyst. So come on out. It's going to be a blast. You're going to meet all sorts of other colleagues who are at all the different airlines who are implementing these same strategies. You're going to make friends.

[00:06:18] You're going to get their phone numbers. You're going to, you're going to be able to network with other, other pilots who are doing this stuff and spouses come for free. So if with a primary ticket, your spouse can come for free. If, if they want to come, if they want to stay back, they're not really interested or they're taking care of the kids completely fine. But if they would like to join, spouses come for free. That's right. Well, let's shift our topic today to today's episode. Take who we're bringing on today. And I think he's got a really interesting story.

[00:06:47] He's got a really interesting story. It's Chris Prefontaine. He was actually a pro snowboarder and went on to become a registered investment advisor. He was a financial advisor on Wall Street. From there, he started getting into real estate, buying rentals, flipping homes. He was on HGTV. He's a speaker and he utilizes some of the whole life insurance policy strategies that we've talked about on this show before. So very, very interesting to hear his take on that.

[00:07:17] So with that, let's get into it. Chris Noggle, let's get to the show. Sweet. Welcome to Passive Income Pilots, where pilots upgrade their money. This is the definitive source for personal finance and investment tactics for aviators. We interview world-renowned experts and share these lessons with the flying community. So if you're ready for practical knowledge and insights, let's roll.

[00:07:46] Chris, thank you so much for joining us. Hey, thanks for having me on. Yeah. Yeah. So we talked a lot about your background, your resume in the intro. So we'll kind of skip past that part, but would love to hear in your words, you know, who are you? A really simple guy. You know, I'm a snowboarder at heart. You know, if you ask me what I would want to do for the rest of my life, well, when winter's here, I want to be snowboarding. When the summer's here, I want to be in the water swimming or surfing. So like at the core, that's who I am.

[00:08:15] That's who I want to be. Then when you kind of unpack the dream of the things that, you know, I really would want to do, you get into, you know, who I am and I'm a very well-known wealth educator, I guess you would say, or influencer online. But I do one thing and one thing exceptionally well, which is privatized banking. Or as some people would know it as the infinite banking concepts or be your own banker. So we're the largest in the country for that.

[00:08:41] And we've done some really amazing things that solves problems for a lot of people, but I'm also a real estate investor, have been for, well, since 06. And I like solving problems, man. I'm a visionary, which is good and bad. And I'm very much a creator. So I created the largest dating site for money, not for people. So people with money meet people that need money.

[00:09:06] So when you ask who I am, that, that I guess is the simplest way to say it, but who I want to be known as is just the dad who snowboards and surfs and skateboards. Too cool. Well, let's bring it back to your pro snowboarding days. I really want to like get into getting to know you personally. And, you know, we were talking in the, in the green room about your amazing journey and we're going to kind of tie it all together here, but let's start with, you know, back when you were a teenager and the pro snowboarding days.

[00:09:34] And I'd also love to ask you where you like to snowboard these days in the winter. Well, going back to those days, it's unique. My best friend, Jack, who rode dirt bikes a lot together because I lived out in the country and worked on his dad's farm. One day he shows up at my house with this thing, you know, we're skateboarders and everything, but he shows up with this big skateboard with these straps and binders on it. And I'm like, what is this? He's like, it's a snowboard. It's like skateboarding on snow. So we're playing around with that. That winter I asked for one for Christmas.

[00:10:02] My mom got me like a, a used snowboard and some neon outerwear. And we went up the street with our four wheelers and dirt bikes and we would build jumps and ride. And I loved it. I was having the time of my life. I mean, it was the first time in winter that I had like an activity because I live in Buffalo, New York. We have winters. And, uh, I just found a new found love for snow and I'll never forget. Like I went to the Hill. Uh, this is like my second year, maybe my third year snowboarding.

[00:10:29] You know, I, I, I wanted to do more with snowboarding, but I live in Buffalo. I want to preface that. Like this is the Mecca for snowboarding. I mean, like even Jackson Hole. Yeah, no, no. So an interesting thing happened. I had caught wind that these two pro Burton riders were going to be at Kissing Bridge, my home resort, and they were going to be there during the week. So I asked my mom, Hey, can I skip school and go up to KB to see these pro riders? I did. And I'm, I'm doing laps with these guys.

[00:10:58] Blair was one guy and he's a super good friend of mine. And Shane is the other guy, but they were like superstars back in the day. And I was kind of like nervous, you know, so I'm like lapping them, but I'm staying really far back. Well, Blair like midway through this kind of comes up to me and he says, Hey, do you want to ride with me or ride with us? I mean, that it's like a dream come true. So I'm riding the rest of the day with these guys. But one thing happened during that, everybody else, you know, from family to friends, you know, all the people in school that I would say, Hey, I want to be a pro snowboarder.

[00:11:28] They would say, you can't, you can't do that living here. You'd have to move to Utah or Colorado or somewhere else. And I just witnessed and spent a day riding with two pros that are from my backyard. So I knew it was possible. And all I did is I just, I literally set my mind to it. You know, Earl Nightingale would call it the worthy idea. I had my worthy idea, man. I just wanted to be a pro snowboarder. So I didn't have the money. I didn't come from a family of means. So what I would do, and this is interesting. So I'll wrap it up after this.

[00:11:58] There was a country club by my house. Okay. It was built in a ravine. Okay. And there was sand traps on either side of the ravine. So I had seen like sledders hit the sand traps and jump. So I'm like, I'm going to go there, find one that's on the backside where I'm not going to get in trouble. And I'm going to build a jump out of the sand trap. And every day after school, I'm going to go there. I'm going to hike up and I'm going to hit the jump. And I'm, I'd watch the videos on VHS. I'd get my tricks and I'd go there and I drill them until I had them dialed.

[00:12:27] Dude, I did this almost every day. And the most dreaded sound was the sound of my mom's horn going off when I had to get picked up when it was getting dark. And then I knew it was over, but that motivated me another thing. So I remember going home and I'm like, I got to get, I got to get more laps in the time that I have at the country club, which means I need to get in better shape. Cause I was winded, man. You're hiking up and down. You just get winded. So you lost a lot of time. So I started running. I put my gear on my boots and everything.

[00:12:55] And I ran up and down my mom's backyard to get in shape so I could do more laps, learn more tricks in the time that I had. And I swear to you, that is why I became pro. I was such a consistent rider when it came to competitions, because I drilled these tricks into my mind that I could doom in my sleep. And that's all I thought about. And that's, that's the snowboarding story, man.

[00:13:20] And it became, I lived what most people would call a dream for a lot of years. I mean, just a lot of years. I was a pro snowboarder traveling the world on somebody else's budget, doing the things I only watched in videos. And at the same time, because of that journey, I had started a clothing line, which turned into a skateboard snowboard shop that then became a chain of skateboard snowboard shops. So like, think about that. Like I'm doing everything I could ever dream of doing.

[00:13:49] I wasn't making a ton of money, but I was living the dream. I want to touch on the clothing line. I think this is so interesting. You know, it's not like you were some, you know, massive celebrity that just stuck their name on it and everybody else was doing the work. You actually wrote the business plan. I mean, when you had the clothing line, you had four seamstresses working for you when you were what, 17? 17 years old. And, and then when you had to put together business plans in order to get the shops open, what did you learn?

[00:14:15] I mean, I know that some of our listeners are interested in starting a business, might be interested in getting an SBA loan. In fact, we did an episode recently about, about buying a business, right? So what wisdom can you encapsulate in 20 seconds in terms of writing business plans and getting financing for a business venture? Yeah, it's, it's the first thing you need to do. And what you really need to do is carve out a lot of time to sit down and put your vision on paper, do the competitive analysis of all your competitors.

[00:14:45] But what I did is I was a high school kid. So I went to my CPA or my accounting teacher. I went to my business law teacher. I became really close with them and they gave me the time. So that's how I did it. And then that led to them referring me to this guy, Mr. Nemi at NCCC, a community college where they had a small business development center. And he was really influential with me and helping me put together the pieces of my business plan, which then inadvertently got me the SBA loan. But there's an interesting caveat there.

[00:15:13] Like I remember sitting with M&T and I know him over my 20 seconds, M&T bank. And they were the only bank that even gave me a shot. And they said, Hey, I think we could get you an SBA loan, but we would need collateral. I didn't even know what collateral meant. I'm 17 years old, like collateral. Like, and he tells me and I'm like, Oh yeah. Yeah. I got a 1986 Buick Skyhawk. I got a wicked baseball and football card collection and you should see my KX 125. What do you say? He's like, no, no, no, kid. I think I'm thinking more of like real estate.

[00:15:43] So I came home, told my mom, I was, I was totally deflated, right? Like all this work time business plan took six months and the, and I'm dead in the water dead. And my mom said, wait a second. You said they, they said a house would be good for collateral. My mom, who had been divorced, got the house, which is a 700 square foot, two bedroom, one bath house that I grew up in. She still lives in the house. And she said, well, this house probably has 70,000 in equity. Do you think they would take this as collateral? My mom put her house, our house.

[00:16:13] She always calls it up for collateral. So a punk 17 year old kid could live his dream and open this shop. And that's what happens. But that, I grew up so fast after that because I had to like literally every day the store wasn't doing good. I like mom's house could be gone. Right. And let's keep going on that story. Like what, what happened with the, because you started one store first. Where was it? It wasn't in a mall, a strip mall. Yeah. I'm going to go back a little further. So at 16, I started a clothing line called fat clothing company, P H A T like fat farm.

[00:16:43] Actually, I ended up getting a cease and desist from Russell Simmons. That's my claim to fame for celebrities. Like he gave me a cease and desist. So I changed the name, but, but I was printing these t-shirts with my art teacher, Mr. Mahalski after school. And I printed the first dozen, sold them out of my backpack, made two dozen, sold them. Then I got some friends to help me. And it just expanded from there. So this clothing line was kind of what was funding my snowboard ventures to go to competitions. I didn't have many needs, but I needed to get to Vermont, New Hampshire to compete in

[00:17:11] the USSA events. So on what I got, this crazy idea one day, I don't know if somebody planted the idea, but on the drive to New Hampshire or Vermont, I was on the 90. So they said, why don't you take an Atlas back then? We didn't have GPS and map out all the snowboard and skateboard shops along the way. So what I started doing is I'd leave like early or a day earlier, and I'd stop at all these shops. I'd introduce myself. I'd show them my clothing line and I would offer it to them for consignment.

[00:17:39] Some of them took consignment, consignment. Some of them were just like, we'll just buy it. And I started getting distribution on this, literally this track down the 90, which is a seven hour drive. And that's how I started. So there was this one shop called Hard Packed and I was there and the owner, like one day I was there and he's like, hey, do you want to go snowboarding? And I'm like, yeah, of course I want to go snowboarding. And he's like, all right, let's go. And I'm like, wait, what do you mean?

[00:18:12] Boom. Boom. I'm like, dream. And that's what led into the SBA loan. And then that became Fat PHAT Board Shops. And anyone listening, like Google Fat Man, P-H-A-T Board Shops. It's still open today. I sold it in 2010, but it is still open. What a legacy. That's so cool. And that was the start of your real estate journey, right? The real estate journey came a little later. So my retail stores, I was living this dream up until 2000.

[00:18:37] And in 2000, when the dot-com crash hit, my business took a major downward trend and I was highly leveraged because I had opened my third location right before the dot-com crash. I mean, I was in my early twenties, 22 years old, I believe I was at this time. And I didn't know what to do. I mean, everything was crumbling around me. I couldn't even make my car payments on $199 a month car payment. And I'm just like, I need to get a job. Now, Little Caesars, which is where my friend Mike worked, I went there. I'm just delivering pizza at night. They weren't even hiring.

[00:19:07] That's how bad the recession was. So I put my resume out, which fit on one piece of paper. And the only people that responded were Wall Street firms. I had no idea what anything in Wall Street meant, but they wanted to interview me. So I went out, grandma got me a suit because I'd never put one on in my life, a little zip up tie. And I went to two interviews. I took a job with one, hated it, went to the other company. Interviewed again and ended up going there. So I became a financial advisor.

[00:19:36] Why do you think those Wall Street firms responded to your resume? I can tell you exactly why. Because I asked that question in the interview. I said, you know, listen, like no disrespect, but like I'm a snowboarder. I own retail stores. Like I know nothing about Wall Street. I have no formal education. Why would you even entertain me as an interview? And they said, because you're a self-starter and an entrepreneur and you're coachable. And that was it. I did. And a financial advisor, right? Okay.

[00:20:05] So what was that? What was that like? I mean, going, obviously, you know, we talked a little bit about this before the show, but going from, you know, running your own retail stores and clothing line and being a snowboarder and sort of living that dream to sitting in an office. So what was that transition like? Hard. Hard. So remember, you know, being a pro snowboarder and running skateboard shops every day, I showed up in a t-shirt, a hoodie and a tube, period. End of story. So now I got to show up every day in a gray, a blue or a black suit with a tie.

[00:20:34] Back then, no ifs, ands or buts about it. That's how I showed up. I had a major identity complex. It was one of the hardest things about this transition for me. And then I'll get to the second hard part. So here's how that played out. And folks, sometimes you just got to trick yourself. You got to trick your own freaking mind. And here's how I did it. There was this company that I loved and admired and still to today, there's never a day I don't have a piece of their clothing on called Volcom. Volcom was huge and very much a part of my life. And I knew all their riders.

[00:21:04] I knew their team managers. I didn't ride for them because I rode for another clothing line, but but I loved them. And I knew for back in the day, they made suits for the Las Vegas convention. Okay. And I knew they had these things. So I went to the rep and I said, Hey, man, I need a blue, a gray and a black Volcom suit. Can you hook me up? And he did. He's like, but this is only for athletes. So if anyone asks you where you got these, do not use my name, but I'm going to hook you up.

[00:21:32] You just got to represent, you know, when you're wearing these and tell people about it. So I then when I put that suit on, it was very subtle. It had different cuts, you know, like Volcom style, had the little stone. And then the inside, it was wild designs. But that made me feel like I didn't abandon who I was. It just brought me that close to who I really was in my core. Like I said, in the beginning, you asked who I am. And I said, I'm a snowboarder. That's it.

[00:22:01] And that allowed me to get through those early years. Now, the second part I used to, because I was a retail shop owner, I worked my shops from 10 a.m. till 9 p.m. Okay. That's just what I did. And I had staff that would help. But I could do everything better than everybody else in my mind. And like, that was it. So when this happened now, you know, in the least up till five, six o'clock, I can't be at the shop. I got to be in the office. And it was a shift. I stopped working in the business. And I started working on the business.

[00:22:30] And I transitioned some of my employees into managerial positions, thinking this is going to tank. But I didn't care because I was going to lose it anyway, right? Because I couldn't afford it. And the opposite happened. The business started thriving. The retail store was doing numbers that it had never done before. People were raving about, you know, Nate and Randy and Hans and all the guys that were, you know, at the various locations like running these. Then we did a video division. We were creating our own videos way back in the day.

[00:22:59] This is back in the late 90s. And I'm working on the business, you know, from the office. I'm coming up with marketing ideas. I'm coming up with events. And like, we'll send a limo over to the local college, grab all the ski club kids, bring them over, give them alcohol. You could do this. You know, and, you know, and then just have them spend their parents money. And it worked. We were, we do like 10, $20,000 nights with this limo thing. So these are the things I worked on while I was at the firm.

[00:23:28] And I just, it changed the way I looked at business. I no longer wanted to work in the business. I just wanted to work on it. And I had to replace myself and I did it in a unique way that really worked. So those are the two big takeaways for that period of time in that transition. What were your clients like at the firm? Who are you working with typically? And what were you advising them on? Yeah. So it was interesting. In the beginning, it was, you know, you start with your project 200, which you write a list

[00:23:55] of the 200 people that you know, or have, you know, some commonality with and you call them and that was it. And when you run through your 200, you dialed from the phone book. So that's what I did. And then I started getting referrals. I was really good at this because here's what I saw. I'd go to the firm, being an entrepreneur, you notice these things. And I'd get there and all the senior advisors, the guys in the big glass offices around the edge, you know, it's just like the movies, folks. Like if you think it's any different back then, it wasn't, I was in the bullpen in the middle and it was loud.

[00:24:25] And on the end, the edges are all the top producers. And you dialed and you passed them on to the senior advisors until you got your series seven. And then you, you were off running and doing it yourself. So what I saw is I saw these senior advisors and these guys made hundreds of thousands. They'd get there at like just before nine o'clock. They'd leave for an hour at lunch and they were out of the door by no later than five. Like if they made it till five o'clock, it was a very strange occurrence. I watched this. Now I'm just a young kid. I'm driven.

[00:24:54] I don't have a girlfriend because as a pro snowboarder, that was a, you just didn't do that, right? It was dumb to get a girlfriend. If you were a pro snowboarder, you had plenty of opportunities to, but so I'm watching these guys and I'm like, what if I got here at seven in the morning and I got all my busy work done. I pounded the phones the normal time during lunch. I went up and I saw clients. Then at the end of the day, what I would do is I would pound the phones and I would set appointments for that evening.

[00:25:23] If they would see me after work and I'd go meet them at their kitchen table. And that's what I did. And I know that that does, that's not the, it's not out of the realm of norm for advisors, but back then these guys just weren't doing that because it was too easy for them to just dial the phone and make money, you know, versus your, or just have us dial the phone for them. So I, I became number three in that office in three years. Like I was the third, I was number three from a production standpoint. So I was just crushing it, but I was just doing what everybody else was unwilling to do.

[00:25:52] That wasn't better than them. I wasn't more experienced to them. I wasn't slicker than them. I just, I worked them. Yeah. That's so applicable to any facet of life, right? I mean, whether it's athletics, business, getting ahead in your career, making it into a career that you want to get into, you know, I'm sure a lot of airline pilots can attest to that when they're, you know, fighting to get hours, especially on the civilian side, but that's fantastic. So, okay.

[00:26:19] So you make it to number three and of course I know the end of this story, you know, then you get into real estate. Then you get into a private banking and private money club and all this other stuff. So what happens next? Yeah. So like, you know, I just told you like how I became number three, but what I was really focused on is AUM. You know, we, we were stockbrokers in the early years and then we kind of, the RIA model came about, literally it became popular while I was an advisor.

[00:26:46] So I watched the whole change from being the stockbroker, cold calling, you know, dialing for dollars and just selling slinging stocks to then kind of doing the planning. So I got really good at the retirement side of things. I, we set up a lot of 401ks, a lot of 403bs. I managed them. I did a lot of rollovers when people would leave their jobs. That was like kind of really what I was good at. And then, and then on occasion, like we did some life insurance, a lot of term insurance, you know, you know, but I knew all the life insurance and there was one guy in my office.

[00:27:14] His name was Mark and Mark was a big life insurance producer, but he only did whole life insurance. It was the only product he did. So I started doing a lot of work with Mark. So I'm like, he just does whole life and he isn't really doing the AUM stuff because I was at kind of the cutting edge of the RIA back then. And he would send business to me for the AUM. I would send him the life insurance business, but he'd bring me in on a lot of these bigger cases. And I would learn all about how he was using life insurance outside of just the protection side.

[00:27:41] He was using it in lots of different capacities, you know, like supplementing retirements. He was using it for business applications, key man, buy, sell funding. So I learned all this and it was pretty fascinating how he was doing it, but I stayed on the AUM side and, you know, at the end of my career, we were running our own funds. I changed from that firm. I went to a small boutique that had an investment banking firm above us. So we were watching the investment banking firm put together deals. Then they'd send them down to us.

[00:28:09] We'd go out and raise for those deals. We had our own funds that we managed, you know, very boutique, but we had like four funds that we managed. And then I just kind of managed my client base and I managed some institutional money and all it was basically just every day, just managing dollars. Like, you know, there wasn't AI, there wasn't algorithms really that we use. It was physical. You'd watch the trades that the insiders were doing. You'd get into the dark pools and there was a strategy to it.

[00:28:36] So I was doing that at the end and it was pretty fascinating, but it was also scary because when I started seeing the institutional side in dark pools, I saw a lot of things that I don't talk about it much anymore and I don't want to, but it was things that scared me a little about the industry, things that like weren't right at all. And I watched it firsthand happen and I'm like, this is not legal in any way, shape or form. Now, a lot has happened since those days, but obviously some of these things that I saw

[00:29:05] happening are things you heard about when you hear about 2008. But that was kind of like gave me a really sour tongue to the industry. And I really didn't want anything to do with that. But the firm I was at, that's just what we did. And I started drifting. So how the real estate stuff happened was because of that drift. My focus changed. I wasn't excited about what I was doing. I just did it because I got paid a lot of money to do it.

[00:29:29] But I had this one client who was very wealthy real estate developer and he barely gave me any money, if I'm not mistaken, I was just talking about this with someone, I think he like would do like $200 a month for his accounts for his kids. And I knew this guy. So I took him out to lunch and I'm like, come on, man, you know, like you make, you were tens of millions of dollars, like throw me a bone. Let me manage some of that. And he simply said to me in the most eloquent way, he's like, no, like I'm a real estate investor.

[00:29:57] I know, like, and understand what I do and I can make way more money with way less risk. I'm sure you're great at what you do. You do a good job with the stuff you have. But like, I just, this is what I do. And, and I just kept asking questions and he told me how he did it and the things he did. And I got interested. So 2006, um, I was going to do my first piece of real estate and it did. It was a flip. It was supposed to make me 40 grand. That was my target. I made eight grand. It was supposed to take me three months, you know, just like they show on the TV shows, but it took me a year and five months.

[00:30:27] It was this in New York. Were you living? Like, were you in Wall Street? Like on Wall Street? Yeah. You know, and that was a demo day was the best day. And every other day was, so where was the flip? It was in a little, little town out in the country called Gasport. Like a little, how long did it take you to drive out there? Oh gosh. From my house. Yeah. Probably 20 minutes from my house, but it was like an hour and 15 from my office. Okay. Yeah. And I would drive out there. I'd be in a suit driving out there. I would change like in my car because they didn't want to get it all dusty.

[00:30:56] And we'd go in and we'd paint and we did a lot of the work ourselves until we realized we were way out of our league. I did it with my best friend, Mike. That's amazing. But that's how I got into real estate. Then 07, I did another flip. And then 08 is when I, my lease came due for my retail store, my big store. And the tent, the landlord was going to jack my rent, like all hot. I mean, it was like a 20% increase. So I'm like, I can't do this. So there was a building, two buildings down. It was an old paint shop. It was dilapidated, but it had a for sale sign.

[00:31:23] It was 340 grand if I'm not mistaken or something like that. And I put an offer and not knowing where the money was coming, going to come from. I got a bunch of private investors to put the money in. They weren't good people. They buried me some shallow grave if I didn't pay them more money. And I almost didn't because right midstream of this development project into a three unit strip mall where my store was going to be the number one tenant and then was going to rent the other two.

[00:31:53] I literally ran out of money, completely ran out. I had exhausted all the life insurance policies, cash value. I'd used all the money in my 401k. I literally was down to like, I had enough money, I think at that point to pay two more months of their 15% interest payments. And it got so bad. She's now my wife, Larissa, but she had just moved into my house back then. And I remember I came home one night. I was so tired, so just burned out. And I sat her down and I said, sweetie, I need your help.

[00:32:22] I need your help paying the bills here. I need your help paying the mortgage. I need your help paying the utilities. Because if not, I'm going to lose everything. Now, I was desperate clearly because she had just moved in. She very easily could have just left. And the funny part about that is she actually did. She stuck it out with me and she helped me a lot. And that's the only reason I didn't go bankrupt. And then we ended up getting a bank when we had 80% occupancy that took us out of that hard money loan.

[00:32:50] Shortly after that moment with my wife or my girlfriend at that time, this bank, First Niagara Bank, ended up getting me a loan, bought out those investors just in time. Matter of fact, the investors deferred some payments because they knew I had a bank commitment letter. And that's when I made it. Whew, man. Okay. So you get the store stood up and then, of course, 2008 happens, right? Yeah. Yeah. It was rough. And then I almost went bankrupt. Oh, wait.

[00:33:18] But the crazy part about that is it's like when I look back and I think like where I'm at now, you know, and I'm in a really good place now, but everything that has got me to where I'm at, I didn't learn when things were good. I learned it in all these, these terrible, terrible times of my life where I'm just about to go bankrupt or I can't afford my car payment. I'm going to lose my stores and my dream. And like, I learned so much in a short period of time because I'd appear desperate. Like I was just desperate.

[00:33:48] I had to, you know, and I think that's just the, there's a lot to be said for that, but it's just the fight or flight. Yeah. Well, they always say that success is not a very good teacher, but failure is. Okay. So after 2008, you started buying multifamily. Let's talk about that. Yeah. I mean, Warren Buffett was a hero and still is to this day. I read all of his books and his books always talked about, you know, be, be fearful when others are greedy, but be greedy when others are fearful.

[00:34:19] 2008, if you didn't live through it, you won't understand what I'm saying. It was, it was absolutely. It was, it was that out of a horror movie and real estate just literally fell out of the sky. You could, these numbers aren't going to make sense to some of your, the pilots and the people who own real estate, whatever I was buying, but we would run our pro formas at $15,000 a door. And I would pay a max of 20,000 a door and we would go out and make offers for these.

[00:34:49] And I, and I got the buildings. First building I bought was an eight unit, uh, strict. It was like a strict house, uh, eight unit, uh, side by side. And I went in and same thing is, is always, you know, I didn't have a ton of money cause I'd almost lost it all in a way. So I would take whatever money I made in the advisory, whatever money I had, I would renovate the units one at a time and rent it out. Take that, use that to leverage, you know, get the bank to refi it or do whatever. And, and I just did this and I got up to 36 units.

[00:35:18] Um, I remember that house was on the Roche. This is how vivid this stuff is. You never forget these things on Roche. And I ended up selling that. I bought it. I can't remember what I bought it for. Like not a lot. I sold it for a really good profit. And then I bought a Beatrice, which was a four unit, totally renovated that. And then I just kept going and I, and you know, I got up to 36 units. I literally thought I was at the top of the world. I'm an advisor. You know, I had sold my retail store in 2008.

[00:35:43] There was no, there was no, I was never going to come out of that hole that I got in during 2008. So I knew I had to do something and I was just kind of done with it at that point. At that point, I mean, I don't did from 94 until 2010. So that's a long run, you know, I was done with it. But so I sold that and sold it to another rider locally who I competed against and his parents bought it and he now runs it today. It's still open today. Fat man.

[00:36:10] But, um, the funny thing is, is after that I sold my strip mall in 14 and I use that to kind of seed fund these apartment complexes. It was, it was wild. And then it all came tumbling down again, you know, as if, as if I hadn't taken enough beatings. This one's the worst beating, uh, 2014, never forget the day. I had my 37th door. It was just a duplex, tiny little duplex, but it was a good price. Brought it to the same bank, the bank that took me out of that hard money loan with the plaza. It's called first Niagara bank.

[00:36:40] Same guy, Greg still worked there. He's still my banker today. Um, and I brought him this 37th deal thinking this is a shoe in and it, you know, it took him a while to get back to me. So I remember calling him like, Greg, what's going on, man? I got to know, like, I got to move on this thing. He's like, yeah, uh, we should probably meet. And I'm like, okay. So I went into the office and he's like, listen, I got some really bad news. He's like, we can't do this mortgage. I'm like, why? He's like, well, we reran your financials and your debt to income ratio just is out of the

[00:37:09] realm of what this bank will lend on. And I'm like, Greg, that doesn't make any sense. Like I'm making more money now. The advisory is doing good. Like I've got all these rentals that are cash flowing. Like what gets? And he says, yeah, well, because all these mortgages, this is, you're going to understand this. And some of your listening, especially the pilots will understand this. You know, every one of these properties I bought, I, Greg always asked me, do you want to borrow in the company name or in your personal name? And I said, I don't know. I mean, but he, he, all he ever said, Greg always said this.

[00:37:38] Well, in your personal name, the rates lower by about a percent and a half. Okay. Well, let's do that. Right. Cause it makes logical sense. Yes. I did that. But what you all need to understand is when you do that, you and your income is what they wait you on. So you're never going to get more than like eight. I can't remember what the debt wall was, but it's like eight properties and you're at the seat, you're at the wall. They're not going to lend to you, but it got worse. You see, that wouldn't have been a big deal. Not, Oh wow. I can't get your 37th deal. They froze my fricking line of credit.

[00:38:07] Like a week after that, they froze my line of credit. I had all these properties, midstream construction. I needed the line of credit. That's what I did it on. And now I had, it was just shut off. So anytime you think, you know, any of you think you got it, you know, cause you got your line of credit, the bank anytime can shut that sucker down. And they did. And I have nowhere to go, Tate. I had to, I had to start selling all my apartment buildings. And I literally sold every one of them because I just got so pissed off at this circumstance. I'm just like, I'm selling them all.

[00:38:36] And I did. And I got out of, I got out of debt. I had a little extra capital. I watched, I went, went to this webinar or seminar thing and they were talking about flipping houses. And I'm like, yeah, we're going to flip houses. Cause that way we don't have to deal with the banks. We don't have to do this. This company will provide capital, co-go capital. And, and that's, that was the next phase. So, you know, I want to go back to that, you know, sure they, they froze the line of credit, but I mean, you had active, uh, what mortgages on each one of these properties. They were cash flowing.

[00:39:06] I mean, why not just hold the portfolio? There's this guy named Murphy. I think all of, you know, Murph Murphy's law. So that winter, never forget it. I would just bought this beautiful eight unit that needed full renovations out in Lockport. And we had one of the coldest winters of my life. And on three of my properties, that eight unit that I just bought in two others, that there was one night. It was, I don't remember. It was like negative 30.

[00:39:35] All the pipes froze and burst all at the same time, the same exact night. I got the call three in the morning. I'm out there. I'm trying to patch water in this freezing cold. It was awful, but I had to call emergency plumbers out to these three places. And the bills were astronomical. Like one place was like eight grand. The other one was 12 grand. The other one I think was low at like 2,500 because it was a duplex. And I just didn't have like, that was everything that I had. Like, you know, I was, I was all in.

[00:40:04] So like, yes, they're cash flowing. But what you got to understand in real estate is like, you can have 36 units, but the cash flow really net of all your expense. It's not allowed. I mean, it was depending on how you look at it. It wasn't enough. So we had reserves, but I never did a great job of like keeping reserves because I was always on to the next project and the next. Obviously each project. Typical real estate investor. Yeah, there we go. Equity rich, cash poor. Exactly. I'm crushing it, but I'm not.

[00:40:35] So, you know, and I think it's, I'm glad you pulled that out tape because like everybody listening here would be like, oh, what an idiot. Why didn't you just use the cash flow on the properties? Of course I used the cash flow on the properties, but there wasn't enough of it. So one hit and that was it. I ended up, I did all those. I got on payment plans with these plumbing companies and I just, I think, you know, there's just a certain point of, you know, you take a lot of beatings and it just did a certain point. You're just like, I'm just done. Done. And I was just one man.

[00:41:01] I was doing well as an advisor and I just didn't want anything to do with it. Yeah. What am I, what am I spending all my free time running around to these 36 units for? And that's exactly what it was. All my free time. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Real estate is not a passive sport, even though it's, you know, we've talked about K1 losses and, and even if you actively materially participate, unless you could do the 750 hours, the IRS still says it's passive. It's not, it's not all that passive.

[00:41:31] Okay. So you sell that and you start flipping and you know, we're, we're already, you know, 20 minutes to, uh, to closing this thing out. So we got to pick up the pace here because I really want to get to the private banking and private money club and everything that you're doing today, but let's touch base on HGTV and the flipping and that saga. Yeah. So I, I'm a visionary. So I'll never forget. We were at this seminar, this real estate seminar out in Las Vegas, Tariq and Christina from a flip or flop, get on stage and they do their little dog and pony.

[00:42:01] I'm in the front row. And I look at my, she was my fiancee at that, at that point, Larissa. And I say, Hey, listen, if we're ever going to get on that stage, cause I'd always talked about, I want to speak. I want to tell my stories. If I'm ever going to get on that stage, we've got to have a show where the idea planted in mind, that's everything hired Kyle, who was my videographer at my shops. When I had them, he put together the sizzle reels. We sent it out. I got a product or producer who took us under a boat, but not bodega. That was the second one. The first one, it's going to slip, but we couldn't get it placed.

[00:42:31] It's the first time bodega picked us up and they got us on HGTV. So that whole span of that flipping era was from like 2015, late 14, early 15, straight through to 2018. When we had the show, when we aired and our show was off to a huge hit. But if you don't know this discovery, but does HGTV at that exact time, we were second coming out of green light. The show that beat us was still airing. We actually know the girl really well.

[00:42:58] But at that point, like they said, we're not doing any new shows. So the show ended. That was it. The show was done. This is what? Risky Builders? Risky Builders. She can Google it. Risky Builders HGTV. You'll see me and my wife, the snake and all of them. That's so cool. Yeah. So we did the show. It was wild. We met a lot of really cool people, but that door slammed in my face when they called me and said, this show is not going to go on. And I'd burn the boats, man. And my financial advisory practice, when I told them I got a show on HGTV, they're like, you have to decide.

[00:43:26] Are you going to be an advisor or are you going to be a TV show star? There we are. I'm going to be a TV show star. So I told my practice. I hung up all my licenses to pursue this and then the door slammed in my face. It's typical. Right. So that was the flipping days. We did 272 flips. We were averaging about 20 to 25 every month. It was quite the experience. Top three pieces of advice that you could give to somebody that wants to flip a house. You'll always go over budget.

[00:43:55] The profits will always be less. And the bank or the private lender will always make more money than you. There you go. Okay. So that's a perfect segue to being the bank. Yeah. Because I saw this 200 and sometimes. So I'd met this guy, Mike. He was one of our lenders and he was a really wealthy guy. Well, out in Salt Lake City, and this is where we're going to get into the infinite banking really heavy. So this is exactly where it all began.

[00:44:19] And just for anybody listening, we've done many episodes in the past on whole life and how this works. Another thing that it is sometimes called is infinite banking. And so in any case, I just wanted to preface that so that people are tracking that it's the same concepts that we've talked about in the past using high cash value life insurance policies. But please continue. Yeah. So this Mike guy, I'm in Utah, which is where he lived. And I was out there snowboarding. And I said, hey, I got a deal. Can we meet? He said, yeah, meet me at Cheesecake Factory for lunch.

[00:44:49] So I do. Sitting down, running the deal through. Done this many times with him, Peace Cake. And I just, for some reason, just decided to start some small talk. So I said, so how do you do all this lending without a flinch? He said, I lend for my own private bank. And I'm like, holy crap. Like in my mind, I'm a financial advisor. This guy owns a bank? I thought this guy owned a bank. I swear to you, I knew Mike. I knew his brother. You know, I knew their family was multigenerational. But like, that's a whole nother level of wealth. And I'm like, dude, this guy's way wealthier than I thought.

[00:45:17] So I said to him, I said, hey, after lunch, like you want to swing by? I want to just check the bank out. He said, I don't actually own a bank. I do everything a bank does. I mimic a bank. And I just kept egging him on. He's like, all right, so here's all I did. I changed where my savings went first. Okay. I don't leave it in banks. I put it into this private banking system because he didn't tell me what it was. Maybe he was embarrassed to say it, you know, because obviously, hopefully it's got a bad name. So he went and he did everything to go around this. And he didn't produce. He wasn't an agent or anything.

[00:45:45] He's like, well, where I put my money, it gets a guaranteed interest rate. So as an advisor, I'm compartmentalizing all this stuff. I'm like, okay, all these things are guaranteed because I know it from the advisory. Then he mentioned I get dividends. Okay. These are the things that get guarantees and dividends. And then he's like, and my dividends and interest grow tax-free. Okay. And now I'm really confused because it's Roth IRA, maybe munis, like what the heck? And then he keeps going. He says, you know, and then it's private. It's protected against judgments and liens. And if I die, he called it self-completing.

[00:46:14] And I'm so miffed. And I said, well, tell me how it works. He said, all right, well, when you come to me with a deal like this, for all intents and purposes, use a hundred grand because it's simple math. You need a hundred grand. I underwrite the deal. Then I go into my private banking system and I take a loan for a hundred grand and I give you the a hundred grand. You then pay me back 15%. It was 12 plus three points, 15%. Great. I take that interest. You pay me and I put it back into my private bank. So I'm always recapturing all the money and I'm regenerating money to lend again.

[00:46:44] But he said, the thing that happens is when I take the loan, I'm not actually taking my money. So my money is in the, my private, it kept saying my private bank earning guaranteed compounding interest and there's no interruptions. So I'm making money there and then I'm making the money on you, but I'm doing the same thing a bank does. Cause he's like the, he didn't tell me it was insurance company at this point, but he's like, there's a cost for me borrowing the money. And back then it was 4%. He's like, I'm paying four to use this money.

[00:47:14] And I'm making, I think he said six or so, six on that money. So I'm making a 2% spread, but every dollar you pay me that I put back reduces the amount of the loan, reducing the interest and driving the APR down. So every time you make a payment to me, I'm making a bigger spread. I was blown away. I'm just like, this can't exist. This can't be something that I haven't learned about. Like, I know, I feel like I know everything. And I just asked him, I said, so can you help me with what is this? And he's like, you don't know.

[00:47:44] Almost like I'm stupid, you know? And I'm like, ah, no. He's like, well, it's a specially designed whole life policy. That's it. And I'm like, I didn't love whole life. You got to understand, I had experience with it, but like, why would you just have experience from back in the, in the RIA, right? When that partner was using, you know, term and, and whole and, and things like that to do, um, you know, key man, I, you know, we've talked about that, you know, key man risk, you know, buying life insurance policies both ways.

[00:48:12] So that if some, if a partner in the business dies, there's, you know, funds that buy the other out, uh, which I think is super interesting. But what was your experience? Was there anyone at the RIA that was actually doing, if you want to call it infinite banking concept? I introduced it before I retired or sold my practice in 18 for the show. I introduced it to those guys. Cause I, this is member 14 and I, I left the firm in 18. So I had been telling them all about it and they were all fascinated, but my clients loved it.

[00:48:39] Like they were, I said, started doing it for my clients, but on a very small level, cause I was too busy with everything else. But when I had, when, when I had learned it, like I said to Mike, I said, you know, can you help me set this up? And he said, no, you got to meet this guy, Brent. And that's where the, the infinite banking journey began. And, you know, like it's infinite banking, privatized banking, be your own banker. They're all the same thing. Just so everybody is clear about that. Right.

[00:49:09] Mindset shift of how we look at money wrong, how everything we are taught about money is to serve somebody else. You're giving control up of your money to somebody else. So think about it this way. You got this 401k, which is great. You know, we call that free money after the vesting, but you're putting in dollars from your paycheck. Okay. Those dollars, you're not going to be able to use them for five, 10, 15, maybe 20 years later. Cause 59 and a half can be a long time away. So you're giving up your most valuable dollars.

[00:49:37] And in there he explained, okay, your dollars are the most valuable today. They will never have more value than they do today because of inflation. Secondarily, you're doing the 401k contributions largely because of tax reasons. You're putting it in to get a pre-tax deduction on the money you put in. And then he says, are taxes going up or down? Of course they're going up. So you're giving up your dollars in exchange for taking back weaker dollars later. You're giving them up for a tax deduction today, which you're going to pay more in taxes when you start doing it.

[00:50:04] And he's like, if you had just taken that money and done something with it today, private lending, paid off your debt, finance your cars with your own banking system, like you would have so much more money in the long run than you could ever, ever build in the market or in a 401k. So it just made sense. It's definitely, you know, I mean, we're, we're big proponents of it on the show. Ryan and I are, I mean, we're, we both have policies and I think it's fantastic. It definitely takes some time to get your head wrapped around until you get a few years

[00:50:34] see how the math works. I I'd love to hear your explanation of the difference between how this, this works versus an S block is that's one of the, the most frequent, you know, criticisms that I hear is, well, you can do the same thing with an S block, right? You have money that sits in a stock market account and it grows, of course, and you can borrow against it and you can use that money to invest somewhere else. Then it, it flows back into that account. Yep.

[00:51:02] They're very similar, almost identical from the surface level. You're leveraging, you know, your assets, okay. Cash value in one. And then in the other, you're leveraging your stock portfolio value that you're then using money from the house. We'll call it the general account of the insurance company or the margin balance, whoever that happens to be at an interest rate. But the goal is to make more on your existing capital than what you're paying on the money when you're using it. So what is the difference? Quite simple.

[00:51:31] There's three main differences that really differentiate them. The first one and most important is control with the margin account. You are not in control of the interest rate, the Fed is. And if the Fed moves the interest rate in your margin account moves, and it can be, it can be very swift and fast. The insurance companies are tied to the LIBOR bond index, which is a very slow moving metric. So when you look at the loan interest rate charged on policy loans, they barely move.

[00:51:57] And if they do, they move in very small incremental amounts, not big swings like the margin. So that's the first thing. You're in control and you have more leniency in terms of that. The second thing is quite simple. You're dealing with one is guaranteed. Okay. The other has risk. So margin calls are a big concern. If you do it wrong, you can get into margin calls. Go ahead. And to catch everyone up, first of all, I said S block. Let me explain it. Securities backed line of credit. So essentially taking, if you have a million dollar stock portfolio, you might be able to

[00:52:26] take a loan for $500,000 from the bank. And now let's get into what a margin call is, assuming that scenario. Yeah. So your basket of stocks that you're using to collateralize the loan for this margin loan, all of a sudden a recessionary hit happens. Something happens. Someone sneezes wrong. Trump says something wrong. Market takes a big dip. Now, all of a sudden your stocks are not worth what they were. If you've used, that's why it's usually 50%. In the policies, you can take out 90% in the margin.

[00:52:55] It's usually 50% because they're trying to pad that. But if you like 2008, just like I had mentioned, you would have been under your margin. So what happens is they just call the loan. So the margin call is basically, they're going to ask you to repay the loan because your collateral is no longer good enough. So if you don't, if you don't, you have no control over this is what I was getting at. Well, it's the same wavelength here. If you don't, they just sell your stocks. No ifs. At a loss. At a loss. At the worst possible time.

[00:53:25] Yeah. So you're really motivated to give them that money back. Yeah. So those are the three big differences. Those are the two. And then the third one is one has a death and if it one does not. Right. Right. And let's talk a little bit more about the borrowing against that whole life policy where the limits are higher. So 90% versus, you know, usually 50. And of course, I just want to double tap on this, that there's no margin call in the life insurance realm. It's your money. Can't happen.

[00:53:55] Yeah, you can't. Because when you're borrowing from the policy, you're borrowing from your death benefit. It's the general account that's doing it, but they have to have the money in the general account to pay your death benefit. So if you die or something happened, they just take it from your death benefit. So like that, that's the biggest difference with the policies. The biggest thing you have to understand is the policy itself, the specially designed whole life built for high cash value will never make you rich. I just, I need to be really clear about that. Yes. You'll be rich. You'll do a little better than your bank account. That's about it.

[00:54:22] Like your bank account might get you three, 4% in a high yield savings. Your policy might net you five and a half percent tax free, which is the same above probably getting six or seven. For any of you high income earners on there, you know, just do the after tax yield equivalent and you'll know what that is. But the policy isn't going to make you rich. So for me, I have a six-year-old daughter. I have a family I love. If I pass away tomorrow, I'm going to Alaska for some heli boarding. Like you never know. Heli could go down. Like I'm leaving my family in a better place.

[00:54:52] So that death benefit is very important for me. And not only that, like I'm a high net worth person. I definitely know that I'm going to be exiting a company that will put me way above the $26 million threshold for Fed the estate taxes. And I'm sorry, the government does a really crappy job of managing money. And I'd be damned if I'm going to give them 40% when I die. My family is not going to give up 40%. So I don't want to get deep into that. But like there's a lot you need to understand.

[00:55:18] If you're going to go into infinite banking, number one, don't just do it to do it. Do it with a set defined purpose. And it can just be a simple purpose. Like I want to get out of debt and I want to do it faster with, you know, compounding interest. Great. We could show you how that will work and it will work 100% of the time. You might just say, hey, listen, I'm sick of, you know, my cars. Because listen, we're all high net worth earners. I have a Porsche collection. Like I don't want to finance my cars through the Porsche dealership or through the finance companies because they take too much. So I make those same car payments back to my policies.

[00:55:48] Like if they're going to charge me 6% for this target that I just bought, I'm going to pay myself back 6%. And I'm going to make the interest. I'm going to make the spread. And I'm controlling the money. So like, listen, that's another way. Just like simple things like that. Real estate. You're borrowing money for real estate. So borrow money from your own banking system and pay your banking system back what you pay the bank. Private lending, which we'll get into in a second. That's what I do a lot of. I lend a lot of money. Why? Because I watched all the private lenders make fortunes on me. I wanted to be in their shoes.

[00:56:17] So that's what I do today. The whole thing with infinite banking is you've got to be diligent because it's very easy to, you know, you're never going to get yourself like a line of credit. You're never going to get yourself upside down, so to say. But you can make it so that it doesn't make sense financially if you're not a good, honest banker. Exactly. If you're not diligent, you're not disciplined in terms of putting that money back in the account. It just ends up costing you more than. And I think that's where a lot of the criticism comes from is people who are using their policies wrong.

[00:56:47] They're not committed to the strategy, so to speak. Because again, the policy itself is not the strategy. We've talked about this previously on the show. You have to borrow against it and do things with it in order for it to make sense. So, well, with that, I know we're at time here. Chris, I want to be respectful of your time. This has been absolutely fantastic. Do you want to leave our listeners with a little bit more in terms of how they can learn more about you, maybe learn about Private Money Club and everything else you have going on these days? Yeah, it's super easy, folks.

[00:57:17] It's Chris Noggle, N-A-U-G-L-E. Just put the letters T-H-E, The Chris Noggle. That's my YouTube channel. We'll link to that in the show notes. Chris, thanks so much for the wisdom and look forward to chatting with you soon. Yeah, Tate. Thank you so very much. Take care, guys. Well, thanks again, everybody, for listening to the show. Before you leave, don't forget, we're meeting for the PIP live events in October 8th and 9th in Las Vegas, Nevada.

[00:57:44] If you enjoy our content, what you're hearing, what we're talking about, and you want to network with other pilots that are doing what you're doing, tax and legal and investment professionals, see you in Las Vegas. Go to PassiveIncomePilots.com to get your tickets. Ticket prices do go up in August, so jump on that as soon as you can. Thanks, everybody.